How to Find a Wellness Retreat That Isn't Culty with Cecilie Løvestam

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Things we dive into in this episode: 

1. Breaking generational patterns by attending wellness retreats

2. The difference between a culty retreat leader and a trauma-informed retreat leader

3. Social anxiety that might come up when going on a retreat
   

📘Resources

• ⁠⁠⁠Whole, Full, & Alive Retreat in Portugal⁠⁠⁠⁠

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Full Soul Nutrition Membership⁠⁠

Cecilie is a positive psychology practitioner & a trauma-informed yoga & mindfulness teacher.

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Thanks for listening! 💖 Stay tuned to Caitie’s website for more episode updates and other exciting programs and resources.

Transcript

Caitie: People associate cult with like a circle. People associate cult with things that actually aren't anything to do with cults at all. Those are just more indigenous practices. These are just more practices that we've lost touch with as human beings, so we dismiss them as weird or culty when in reality the things that actually constitute a cult are deep psychological wounding. And we need to be looking out for those things, not drums, not circles, not something that feels a little bit unusual. Is there deep psychological wounding and manipulation happening here? That's what we're looking for.

Hey, welcome back to another episode of Whole, Full, and Alive, the podcast where we make peace with being alive, where we find some fun in the process of becoming the person we're meant to be. Every time I get on this podcast lately, I've been kind of giving a new like mission statement for it. I'm kind of refining exactly what it is we do here, but the essence of it is accepting that life is like a never-ending journey. It's a never-ending evolution, but that doesn't mean that we can't experience joy and pleasure and fun along the way. And we don't have to wait for some end game, for some arbitrary goal to be reached before we're allowed to relax and embrace and be present. So that's what we're doing here.

And on today's episode, I am really excited to talk to you about one of the tools that has helped me really accept that never-ending journey of being alive. One of the tools that has helped me the most in becoming more present and having a better sense of self-esteem and allowing myself to unravel before I reach some sort of arbitrary end goal. And that tool is wellness retreats.

Wellness retreats have been the most game changing thing for me. And I tend to be a little bit hyperbolic when I speak because I'm from New Jersey, but when I say that wellness retreats have been the most game changing thing for me in my life, I'm actually not kidding. And I'm really passionate about helping people feel more comfortable going on wellness retreats because I think that there are this sort of like wild west world. And if you're interested in going on one, you don't really know where to start. And there's a lot of fears that come up around it. Fears like, am I joining a cult if I go on a wellness retreat? Fears like, am I spending too much money if I go on a wellness retreat? So many different things. And so that's what I'm talking about in today's episode. We're gonna dive into some of the fears and the anxieties that come up when it comes to wellness retreats and do a little bit of myth busting about wellness retreats. And then also I'm gonna help you figure out how to find the right retreat for you. And how to look for some signs that the retreat you're about to sign up for is actually a good one. 

And I've brought a guest on to do this with me today. Her name is Cecilie Lovøstam. And someday I will perfect the Norwegian pronunciation of her last name. I'm getting better and better at Norwegian every year because Cecilie is one of my best friends. And she is also a retreat facilitator and a positive psychology practitioner and a yoga teacher. And this is going to be a coffee chat between Cecilie and I about wellness retreats. And of course, because Cec and I are both retreat facilitators, we will tell you about the retreats that we're going to be facilitating later this year. But this is not an extended advertisement for our retreats. This actually is a conversation that the two of us are really passionate about having. We wanna tell you that it makes a lot of sense if you have fears coming up around retreats. We kinda wanna spread the word about like, yeah, what makes a good retreat versus a not so good retreat? And how can you break through some of the blocks that might be preventing you from experiencing this incredibly life-giving, life-affirming, inspiring experience. That is a retreat. Cecilie, welcome. Thank you for withstanding my four-minute introduction.

Cecilie: Thank you so much. I'm excited about our conversation about retreats.

Caitie: Would you like to lead us through a deep breath before we start?

Cecilie: Yeah, good idea. Let's take a deep breath together. Take a moment if it's available to you. Invitation to just lengthen through your spine. Relax your shoulders. You close your eyes if you want to, if that's available. Unless you're driving, of course. Invitation to close your eyes. Or keep a soft case in front of you. Relax your jaw. Let's breathe out completely to prepare. Let's inhale deeply in through the nose, big breath in. And exhale out the mouth, release. Beautiful. Let's let the breath return to normal and blink the eyes open.

Caitie: Thank you. What's so nice about having friends that are yoga teachers and meditation teachers is that you can be like, hey, can you just lead me through a deep breath real quick? Hey, can you just stretch me real quick? Just tell me what you think I should do about this kink I have in my shoulder. But yeah, I love starting the podcast with a deep breath because I feel like it helps me to make sure I'm speaking from my heart a little bit more than from my head. And I hope that when you're listening and you pause for that deep breath, it helps you listen from your heart, not just your head. 

So let's dive into our conversation about wellness retreats. So I will kick us off with the financial fear. Wanna just go right there? Let's talk about that first. So I will speak to this super briefly. The most obvious obstacle to attending a wellness retreat would be having the financial means to go on a wellness retreat. And this is one of the biggest blocks for myself in my life. I struggle with investing in myself. And so anyone who is feeling like, how could I invest a couple hundred or a couple thousand dollars in some cases on attending a wellness retreat for myself?

I want to invite you to not let that fear just make you completely write off the experience because for a long time, I just wrote off retreats completely because of that. I was like, yep, no way, like can't afford it, done. Didn't explore any of the other fears that I had, didn't explore any of the other blocks to going. I was just like, well, that's it. That like clogging the pipes were done. And two things that have helped me most with working through the financial fears of investing in a wellness retreat is the first one is understanding that it is never gonna be logical to invest in a retreat. It is never gonna make perfectly logical sense. If you are looking at your savings, your spreadsheets, your financial funnels, your income versus your outcome, it's never gonna work like completely logically, you're gonna have to take a leap to go. 

And you're gonna have to remember that you're probably the first person in your family lineage to invest in an experience like this. So generationally, none of us were raised to invest in something like a wellness retreat, something like a self-care retreat. I don't think there was any one of us that grew up unless you we're very lucky to have had parents that said to you like, make sure you invest in something like a retreat. That would make sense. That would be cool. And so it's never gonna be logical and it's gonna be a major like pattern to break, like a generational cycle to sort of break, like being someone who invests in their self-care rather than investing it in the stock market or investing it in your savings, like taking some money that you might have put towards something a little bit more air quotes logical towards self-care. It's really important to remember that it's not easy to break generational patterns like that, but remembering those two things is really helpful for me. 

And then the final thing is remembering that it's an investment that keeps on giving after you make it. I swear to God, I have gotten job opportunities somehow, indirectly or directly from every retreat I've ever been on. I've had friendship opportunities that have led to different opportunities that have led me to get so much more than just the retreat. So it's never just the experience that you're investing in. So those are two things that have helped me with the financial piece. I'm curious what you think about that.

Cecilie: No, I think that's, I totally agree. And I loved your emphasis on investment and how it's a gift that keeps on giving. It really is. And I was talking to a friend a few weeks ago, the difference between something being expensive and valuable, if that makes sense. Like I understand, and I've definitely experienced this myself when thinking about making the investment and I look at the number, oh, this is the cost. And you're like, oh, it's so costly. It's so expensive because it is a high number. And I think it's important to think about it a little bit differently or invitation to also consider how all the things that are included in the experience. If you take that into consideration, like all of the planning the retreat host has done, all of the meals, all of the trainings the retreat facilitator had to do to be able to offer that kind of experience, all the additional stuff that goes into the package combined with the transformation, the gift that keeps on giving. It is still a high number, but maybe it's not expensive in the, in the dot sense of the word. Does that, does that resonate?

Caitie: Yeah, yeah, it resonates with me a lot because I hear a lot of people say like, it's so expensive. Like it's and it's with that sort of like tense, gaspy, my God, sort of energy. And there are some retreats that are expensive. There I've seen retreats listed for like $10K for three nights, swear to God. And Cecilie and I's retreats are like under $3K or like way less than that. So we're not talking about like these like massive like six figure, five figure price tags. What I think is important to consider is when you go on vacation, yeah, you pay for your flight and you pay for your hotel, but you also have to pay for every single meal, every single mode of transportation that you take in between places, you have to pay for someone to kind of like find the best experiences for you to do while you're there, doing tours, all of these different things. Whereas when you go on a retreat, everything's kind of just like bundled together, done for you. You save time, you save energy, and you also end up saving money. Even though it does feel expensive when you see it together. I feel like it needs to almost maybe be broken down into like, this is why it's priced this way. Because yeah, I think there is a lot of misconception about like people are just like putting this like hefty price tag on their retreat because they just want to charge that. And it's like, no, it's like, it's expensive to run.

Cecilie: They are, they really are. And I just want to emphasize the value of having someone plan everything for you and take care of all of the logistics. Like I've seen that on my retreats that I have in Greece. And some people have kind of expressed to me that it's kind of like being a child on vacation with your parents and they just like take care of stuff for you. So if you were, know lucky to have those kinds of experiences. It's like, don't have to worry about anything. And that allows you to drop so much deeper into relaxation. And that's like, like, I think that's invaluable, honestly.

Caitie:Yeah, yeah, I remember the first time I ever went on a retreat experience feeling substantially more relaxed than any other time I had ever traveled and I couldn't exactly figure out why at first, but then I realized like, yeah, every meal has been planned for me every single day has been planned for me. Like my only job is to just kind of like come along for the ride. And how often in life do you actually get that experience as an adult? Just like come along for the ride.

Yeah. And it's even more fun to be coming along for the ride when you are an adult, because as a kid, when you're getting dragged around, you kind of resent it. You want that freedom. And then when we become adults, like in all we want is just for someone to like take care of us again. And it gives you that experience. And yeah, that is why the price tag. So I think those are the top things we have to say about the financial fear that comes up around investing in a wellness retreat.

The second fear we wanted to address is the fear that a wellness retreat is going to be like a cult and you're going to get there and the group's going to like induct you and it's going to be an experience where you need to follow a certain set of rules and you need to buy into the pyramid scheme afterwards. And I want to validate that because there are a lot of wellness retreats that literally are that, but how do you, how do you help people work through that fear and how did you work through that fear yourself? Because obviously they are not all like that.

Cecilie: I want to start by validating that fear and it's definitely something I felt as well. Back when I first started attending retreats, one of the very first retreats I attended was actually a meditation retreat. And I was so scared that this was a cult, I would be, because there were a lot of rules. And this retreat, I just want to say that this is a very different type of retreat than the type of retreat that you and me offer, Caitie. Very different type of retreat. And that was a 10 day silent meditation retreat in the middle of nowhere, Massachusetts. 

And I was so uncertain if this would be the right choice for me, but I was curious about it. I wanted to learn more. What I did to prepare, to even, before I even made a decision, is that I talked to other people who had done this type of retreat before, and I kind of got reassured when they shared about their experiences, and I read up about the rules, because it was a very particular program we followed, a very particular method that we learned. So I prepared myself for, like these are the rules, kind of rules and guidelines. And I made the choice, actually the choice that, okay, but I want to try this. I will try to follow this method in 10 days and kind of treat it as an experiment. And then I have to say like the moment after arriving to the meditation center and we handed in our phones and I was like, my God. They locked up our phones and I felt like, my God, like this feels like the beginning of a horror movie or something like that. It feels terrifying. So I just want to validate that. It was fine, by the way. It was so fine. I felt so safe. They had, it was a very, very professionally run program and I felt so safe and so well taken care of the entire time. But I just want to validate that fear. And it was not a cult. Okay. It was not a cult. It was totally fine.

But yeah, I think talking to other people, making sure you trust the facilitator, read up about them if you don't know them personally. Just get a sense of if it's the right vibe for you could be a good place to start. I think testimonials are great, or even if possible, talking to people who have done that retreat in the past could be helpful.

Caitie: Yeah, yeah, I think that's the most helpful thing for navigating this fear specifically is find another person who went on the retreat and get an idea of their experience and scan their vibe a little bit and figure out if you have a lot in common with that person who was previously on the retreat. I think that's important. And figure out if they seem to be drinking the juice or something or if it's like okay, yeah, they seem like a person who's similar to me that had the type of experience that I want to have, rather than they seem like someone who is now wearing all of the merch from that retreat. 

On my first retreat that I led by myself in Scotland, one of my clients made a joke at the end that she's like, are you gonna have us leave through the gift shop? And I was like, that is what it's like. That makes sense, you know? Does it seem like this person left through the gift shop at the end of the retreat? Or does it seem like they had an experience that wasn't necessarily about the company? It wasn't about the leader of the retreat, it was about them. You know, that is like the key. It's like when you go on the retreat, do you feel like you're having an experience where it's about the person that's leading it? Or is it about the thing that that person is pushing? Or is it about you and your personal journey and your personal unfolding? If the retreat feels like it's yours, that's when you know it's not like a culty experience. 

If the retreat felt like it was theirs, then yeah, you've probably joined like a group. And I think that it's so important to be wary of this because there are so many retreats that exist in this sort of pyramid schemey cult-like structure. And I think they're pretty obvious. Like looking back on it, I ended up on one retreat like this, I can tell you. When I was 23, I ended up on one retreat that was cult-like and all the signs were there. But look, I was 23 and I had been through a lot and I was like probably like prime candidate for getting caught up in something like that because I had left the Catholic church recently. I really lost a sense of belonging when I left the Catholic church. I experienced a lot of trauma as a young person. I was recovering from an eating disorder. There's a lot going on for me. And so it was like, I was prime candidate for like a cult leader to be like, Hey, I will save you. 

However, as soon as I got on this retreat, there were a few people on it with me that were connecting the dots that this was kind of like a scheme-y company. And I remember we all got together in our room on the third night of the retreat and we were like, we Googled the Church of Scientology and we were like, this is just like Scientology. There's no difference between what we're doing right now and Scientology. And I learned a lot that night about cults and kind of how they reel you in. And I am telling this story because I think it is important to know that if you're someone who is vulnerable and looking to be held and looking to be free from whatever it is that you're struggling with right now, there are a lot of companies that will try to capture you and catch you. And there are a lot of retreats like this, but I would say it is pretty obvious. Like when they're trying to like push you a bunch of different things, when there is an emphasis on like the idea of it like saving you or saving your life. Would you say there's any other obvious signs that it's kind of like that?

Cecilie: I think another warning sign to look out for could be if there are really strict rules. If there's, I, and that it's not a bad thing that there are guidelines. I think that's important to keep the retreat experience what it is. That's super important to have guidelines, but if there are very strict rules that you have to follow and you kind of I think you can get a sense of that from looking at the material, there various strict rules. And the meditation retreat I went to, there was a very particular method and we did kind of learn from watching videos from a guru person. I felt supported because it was invitational, it was kind of like, take what you want and leave the rest approach, which I think is so important. Take what you want and leave the rest and you can make choices within the experience. If those choices are taken away, if it's like very strict then I think those would be warning signs to look out for. Do you agree with that?

Caitie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree, right? Because the opposite of trauma is choice. I really like that definition of the opposite of trauma is when you have agency, when you have choice, when something's not coming at you and forcing itself upon you. And when something is a cult, it's very forceful. And yes, there usually is one guru or set of gurus that people are borderline worshiping. and there's like this one person who were kind of taught to like, emulate our life after that. There's like a power structure in place. I think that's what it is because it isn't that, the idea of a guru isn't inherently problematic. And I think that there's a lot of, cultural roots of that, that I'm uncertain of, but there's also a lot of problematic roots of guru culture that I don't totally know about. And I should probably have someone come on the podcast to talk specifically about that.

It's very important to have leaders. It's very important to have mentors. It's very important to have guides. It's very important to have actual humans that are holding space for you and that you're inspired by. That's so important. Everyone needs a leader. But there's a difference between a leader and someone that can do no wrong. There's a difference between a leader and someone who cannot admit their mistakes. And I would say that was the biggest red flag of the culty retreat that I ended up on is that the leader of this retreat was seen as someone who could do no wrong. And every time someone pointed out something kind of fishy that she was doing, she would like skirt around it and she would like make up an excuse for it. And she would like gaslight and be like, no, I didn't do that. I didn't say that. Or what you talking about? That's not actually problematic. So that was a big red flag. 

But the last thing I wanna say about this cult fear is that it is gonna feel a little weird when you first enter a retreat environment. Like if you've never been on a wellness retreat before, it will be weird when you first enter it. There's gonna be some parts of it that are a little weird. And just because it feels unusual though, doesn't mean it's culty. When I, I talk about this on my somatic breathwork episode, when I arrived at my somatic breathwork training, which was retreat like because it was actually like four days long and we're with the same people every single day for four days training in somatic breathwork. I remember on the first day of that training, we were all sitting in a circle and the teacher led us through like a deep breathing practice, like all of us together. And I remember all sitting there with like our, you know, nice posture and we're doing the deep breaths and he's like playing the music. And I was like, did I just get inducted into a cult? Like our friend, like I just got inducted into a cult. And I talked to him about it like 20 minutes later. And I was like, honestly, when we first got here, like kind of, it kind of felt a little bit culty to me because we were all just like in our circle. We're breathing to like the beat of the drum and like, and he was like, well, it's so normalized in our world to not take space to breathe that the second you start doing it, it can feel weird and culty. He's like, it's so normal to fill every second of space you get in your day by scrolling or talking or watching TV or sending an email or getting something done. We don't have any space in our day. So he's like, to be sitting in a circle of people listening to music and breathing and taking space to just like go inward probably does feel culty because it's just so not normal in our world. 

And I think retreats take you back to all of the different things that we've lost touch with in the world. Things like meditation, just taking space, just being, just breathing, not having your phone, connecting with people, making eye contact, sitting in a circle and talking like all these different things that we've lost touch with in our world are kind of incorporated in the retreat experience. And so it probably does feel weird because it's not like your day to day, but just because it feels weird doesn't mean it feels culty. Do you want to say anything about that?

Cecilie: No, I think that's, that's such a good point actually. And I think as facilitators, it's important to be reminded from time to time. One of the yoga teacher trainings I did a few years ago, we were talking about how weird it is to do yoga. And I was like, what? Yoga is not weird. Cause I had been practicing for several years at the time, you know? But then we about like, what, what do we do? We breathe. We move in together and we rest and we lay down on the floor. That and our teacher trainer, said that that's weird to a lot of people. That is weird if it's not part of their cultural upbringing. So I think it's important to be reminded of that. And I think it's, it's so valid to feel that. And I remember the first time I took a yoga class, I was like, what is going on? Like what is happening?

It is unusual and I actually like to open up my retreats with an invitation to be open, to try something new and be curious and take what you want and leave the rest, right? But like, at least be curious about it instead of pushing it away. Like, how can you just maybe look a little bit more closely at it? Try it. Be curious and then you can make your choice after, you know, to stay open.

Caitie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's where we end up screwing ourselves over out of a lot of things that could be really helpful for us is when we dismiss it as weird or unusual or, that doesn't work for me or I don't really like that or I've never enjoyed breath work before. So like, I'm not even going to like try to get into this one or, yeah, I, I think that is really important. And when you look at someone doing yoga and you've never seen it before, yeah, they're like in happy baby, like rolling around on the floor, like grabbing their heels, like it's like, yeah, what is this? That is a good reminder that there will be so many things that you do in a retreat environment that you probably haven't seen before that are weird, but don't dismiss that as culty. Culty is there's a leader, there's manipulation, there's rules, there's scams, there's people trying to get you to buy things, there's a lot more to that than doing something that looks a little weird, truly. 

And sometimes I think like, there's a beach bar that I used to go to in Lisbon sometimes, where they would have sort of like, DJs come with live drummers, so they ended up playing like music that sounded a little bit more tribal there. And I took one of my friends there one time and she was like, I feel like we're being inducted into a cult. And I was like, well, just because there's like a drum and there's like different kind of music than what you would hear at a beach bar doesn't mean we're being inducted into a cult. I feel like we think of like people associate cult with like music that sounds more primal. People associate cult with like a circle. People associate cult with things that actually aren't anything to do with cults at all. Those are just more indigenous practices. These are just more practices that we've lost touch with as human beings, so we dismiss them as weird or culty when in reality the things that actually constitute a cult are deep psychological wounding. And we need to be looking out for those things, not drums, not circles, not something that feels like a little bit unusual. Is there deep psychological wounding and manipulation happening here? That's what we're looking for. What do you think? Okay, so the last fear we're gonna talk through.

Cecilie: Mm-hmm. Totally. Yeah.

Caitie: So I think the last fear that comes up for people when they are considering buying a wellness retreat, investing in a wellness retreat for the first time is social anxiety and social anxiety about spending like five nights and six days with one group of people that potentially you've never met before at all. You know, you're sleeping in the same like location, probably not the same room, but you're sleeping in the same location. You're gonna see them every day. You're gonna spend a lot of time in group. You're gonna be working out in a group, doing workshops in a group, speaking in a group, doing excursions in a group. Like there's a lot that happens in the group setting. So how did you personally work through that fear? What do you have to say about that one?

Cecilie: Yeah, and I just, first of all, just want to say that this is such a valid thing to worry about. It's a very normal thing to worry about as human beings. We are social creatures and we want to fit in with our tribe, right? We want to fit in with the group. is just how we developed evolutionary. That is just how we developed as a species to be social beings. And that could also manifest as just worrying about, what if I don't fit in with a group or I'm not a group travel person? I've heard people say, and I think it is valid. And also we need other people. Like I said, we're social beings and I think retreats when they are well facilitated, they are such an incredible space to meet people, to connect with people, to make new friends. And I think how I overcome it in the past is that I just, there's a bit of trust in signing up for the retreat that I'm trusting that other people who are interested in travel or one time I went on a hiking and yoga retreat, people who are interested in hiking and yoga will come and people who are curious to meet other people. And then there's a bit of trust, of trust in that, that you will meet people who you will enjoy getting to know and spending time with.

Caitie: Yeah, there's a... It's a massive risk to sign up for an experience like this. It's so important to validate that it's a leap of faith. You're trusting a facilitator to curate an experience for you. You're trusting that you're gonna have a positive experience within the group that you're traveling with. There's a lot of trust that has to happen because it is such a risk and we need to develop a very confident relationship with all the unknowns of a retreat. And one of them is what's the group gonna be like? 

And as someone who has now had the privilege slash has taken the chance to go on over eight retreats now, I will tell you that some retreat groups I really, really, really vibed with and I took away like five close friends and some retreat groups I vibed with them, but I didn't keep in touch with anyone after. And both were really positive experiences because you end up spending meaningful time and having very present conversations with people that you wouldn't otherwise have met in the world. You have very present conversations with people who are significantly older than you, sometimes significantly younger than you, from a different place in the world than you. And when you're able to just like sit down at a dinner with strangers and you don't have your phone on you, you're present, you have nothing else on your schedule but that dinner for that moment. Because you're on a retreat, you get to be disconnected from the world. You learn so much. You learn so much. And even when I didn't take away like super, like deep lifelong friendships from people on a retreat, I still gained people who are like rooting for me which is interesting. 

So there's this one retreat I went on in San Diego where I ended up making some of my closest friends, like literally two of my bridesmaids I met on that retreat, which is crazy to think about. Like this one retreat, hadn't met either of them before the retreat and they are two of my absolute closest friends, always show up for me, known them for five years now. And it's so cool to have those kinds of friends in my life. And there was another retreat that I went on and I got scholarships for it. It was a more expensive retreat. And so a lot of people on that retreat just don't have the same lifestyle as me. They were kind of coming from a, let's just say a different income bracket, a different sort of like way of being, really different kind of job from me. There wasn't a lot that we could kind of vibe with on like a personal, personal level. And then a lot of them were also a bit older than me. However, they're all rooting for me. And even though like, I'm not like, they're gonna be my bridesmaids and they're like my besties. It's so cool to have these older women in my life who work very different jobs from me. And they'll like, give me like professional connections sometimes. And they'll like see me growing up and send me really cool messages on Instagram about like how they're looking at my relationship with my boyfriend and my life in London right now. And it's, that's like a really special kind of connection as well.

And then there's also people who I haven't kept in touch with that all, but I think of them fondly and I remember them and I remember their energy. And I remember I went on Cecilie's retreat in Greece, a couple of years ago, we had one participant who was the matriarch of the group and I haven't spoken to her since the Greece retreat. And yet I always think of her because she had this fierce like wise present energy and I just thought I want to be like that and I still think of her a lot. I learned so much from our conversations on that retreat, you know? Is there anything else you want to say with that?

Cecilie: Yeah, I think that's beautiful. And I totally agree with you that I also have different experiences of, you know, some retreats, one retreat I went on, I connected with so many people on the retreat and I didn't really stay in touch with them. And that's okay, because I still, you know, learned so much. And yeah, like you said, think about those conversations we had on the retreat and those were really special memories that I take with me. And then we also made some really amazing friends on the retreat, one of them I actually spoke to right before this call, we met on a retreat for entrepreneurs and we became really good friends and accountability buddies and we keep in touch every week. So I think it is really trusting that to go for it, don't let that stop you. Trust that you will meet really amazing people who show up for the same experience because even though they might be different from you, you will still have things in common. 

And trust that a facilitator will hold the space and take care of you as well. And trust yourself to take care of yourself too, you know? And I think with the social, we're also different when it comes to, like some people are more extroverted and crave a lot of social interaction and they just want more and more. All the people I have, I have people very close to me who are hypersensitive and introverted and they get exhausted from social interaction. And I think it's important to mention that retreats, like the program, it is optional, that stuff on the program, at least for my retreat, it's optional, you know, I love to see people taking care of themselves. And if they feel like, okay, I'm actually not going to show up to morning yoga, I'm going to sleep in or, I'm not going to go on this field trip because I just need to take a little bit of time by myself. You can do that. So you get to create your own experience and take care of your own social battery as well. think that's important to mention because we're different when it comes to that.

Caitie: Yeah, yeah, I think this is a good segue into our last section, which is like things to look for in a good retreat facilitator. How do you know that you're going with someone who's gonna facilitate a positive experience? Because it's such a good point that if you are socially anxious, you're anxious about the group experience, if you're going with a good facilitator, that facilitator is going to make sure that you get the right balance of what you need.

So you're never gonna be forced to like perform on a good retreat. You're never gonna be forced to perform. You're never gonna be forced into like some conversation you don't wanna be involved in. You're never gonna be forced into some group activity that you don't really feel like doing. You're never gonna be forced to like, yeah, keep up with the schedule. You're never gonna be forced to like pretend to be someone, anything other than who you are. And I think that that, is like the first sign of a good retreat facilitator is someone who seems to be showing up as they are and not like this very like curated glossy filtered version of themselves where they're like, I know everything, come on retreat with me. But someone who's like a human being. There's so many things that I know we're gonna put on this list, but what are your top things to like look for in a good retreat facilitator?

Cecilie: Yeah, I have quite a long list. Let's talk about it. So I think community guidelines is important. This is maybe not something you'll find on the sales page, probably not. But if you know, you can always talk to the actually recommend if you're unsure about the retreat to reach out to the retreat facilitator and have a conversation. I know, I can only speak for myself, but I know for you to for you too, Caitie, that we would be so happy to have a conversation about the retreat. And maybe then you can get a sense of what are the community guidelines, because I think that is so important to just agree on a set of guidelines. They're not rules, but they're more like invitations, like, for example, confidentiality, setting very clear expectations, having options, like we talked about, getting to make choices for yourself, positive language around food. That's a big one. I feel like that could be an entire podcast episode in itself. I don't know if you want to touch on that one briefly, Caitie. Like that's your...

Caitie: Yeah, I mean that's like if there are so many things that are so important to me about the retreat experience. But one of the primary reasons why I decided to create my own retreat is because I do feel like there are a lot of retreats that focus around some specific restrictive diet like it's like everyone's gonna be vegetarian for the entire week everyone's gonna be juice cleanse for the entire week everyone's gonna Intermittent fast for the entire week like so many retreats. I would venture to say 75% of retreats revolve around a restrictive diet or include that as part of the experience. And it's very important to me as a dietitian who helps people change their relationship with food and their relationship with their bodies and rewire their metabolism after years of restrictive dieting to create or treat experience that's focused on balanced meals and having a positive relationship and positive conversations about food. Because that also hasn't been a guideline on any one of the retreats that I went on, even on my most favorite retreat of all the retreats I went on, there was still this conversation happening at the dinner table one night about how much rice we had eaten that week and how it was so bad that we'd eaten so many carbs. Like we had rice every day and the facilitators was participating in this conversation and I was like, this is like deal breaking. I do not want this to be happening on my retreat because someone could have been feeling so good in their bodies in that moment and it just like fell down like a tower of cards in that moment. So yeah, I feel really strongly about that one.

Cecilie: Yeah, I think it's so important because enjoying food for me, that's so important in my life. So big part of how I find my sense of vitality and yeah, it's just so important. And especially on this retreat in Greece, I'm gonna take you to all of my favorite taverns on this Greek island and we're gonna have the best feta and you know. Greek salad, yes, but also the best pistachio ice cream ever, like not for you, Caitie, because you have a nut allergy, but everyone else will have all the best pistachio products. You know, so it's just, it adds so much to the conversation. So I think, so I think it's, very helpful to just to set that as a, as a guideline, as an invitation at the very beginning. 

Photos, I think it's important to talk about photos because you want to make sure everyone's comfortable. And if you are, maybe you are in savasana and you're like in a vulnerable position and then someone throws a camera in your face, that's not the best situation. So just like an agreement about that. Yeah. So, and then in addition to community guidelines, I personally, I'm big on psychological safety, which is really the sense that you are allowed to make mistakes and get things wrong and you'll be safe. Like no one will take like get you for doing something that's wrong. It kind of reminds me of what you said earlier, Caitie, that you don't have to pretend on the retreat, like safety to be yourself. Interest in the group. And that it's trauma informed, I think it's important to make sure you at least I would recommend to everyone, regardless of your experience with trauma or your identity with that, regardless of that, I do recommend finding a trauma informed facilitator for retreat because it is a pretty intimate experience. Can be.

Caitie: How do you define trauma-informed?

Cecilie: Good question. I think... Hmm, let me think for a second. Good question. Do you have a definition of it? 

Caitie: Just let yourself brainstorm because it doesn't have to be perfect. There is no definition for trauma informed. There isn't. That's why I asked you because one of my clinical supervisors recently was talking to me about how she's like, there is literally no definition for trauma informed. Like she's like, there's no actual definition. And so many people have like trauma informed, like certifications and programs. It's amazing that people are educated on the physiological and psychological impact of traumatic experiences, but there's no regulated definition for trauma informed. The same way there's no regulated definition for a nutritionist. like, know, Nancy whatever can decide, I'm just saying it like a typical name, can decide that she's a nutritionist tomorrow because she read one book about nutrition and it's like, someone else can actually decide that they're trauma informed tomorrow because they read a book about trauma. So I'm curious, what do you think makes someone trauma informed and what do you think that person is aware of, right? Because your definition is not someone who read a book about trauma.

Cecilie: Yeah. So, yeah. So there might be, there are probably many definitions out there. My personal definition, what I think is that the person is like the facilitator is, has training in making different kind of people with different types of experiences feel supported where they're at. I think of consent as a big one, consent to touch, for example, if you're giving physical adjustments and massage, which for many people can be amazing and super powerful. And for other people, it's not helpful in that situation. So consent is a big one. Options is a big one, giving options, having it be invitational, big one, like inviting people to explore rather than saying, close your eyes, for example. I invite you to close your eyes if you want to, otherwise keep a soft gaze at the tip of your nose, for example, and like a yoga teacher context, could be an example. So, to sum it up, I think it's, it's really, being in a setting where you feel supported. And I think that if you were to, for example, let's say you go on a yoga retreat and you get to take a few classes with a teacher, I think you'll soon get a sense of whether that's, that's feeling, if you're feeling supported in that setting or not. And that can help you make the decision.

Caitie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think the biggest thing that comes to mind for me is what we talked about three times already with like choice, like having choice in the experience. It always rubs me the wrong way when even like a fitness instructor is being like very, very pushy or is like, don't go get your water now. You can do one more rep. Like I've had fitness instructors say that to me before and I like to be challenged. I'm someone who loves to be challenged. I love to be pushed. And I'm also a challenger. I like to challenge people. I say to clients pretty often, I'm gonna challenge you for a second. And I say a lot to fitness students as well. Let's challenge ourselves. Because it's really important to invite people to experience discomfort. And you have to create the container for that discomfort to be experienced and you need to create the container for people to be able to tell you that they don't wanna be challenged, that they don't wanna experience that discomfort or that it's just too much too fast. 

Maybe don't want to is the wrong way to say it because who wants to be uncomfortable? But I mean that it's just too much too fast. And I feel like that's what I'm trying to create in my spaces. If I'm going into a really sensitive space, a very vulnerable population, differently abled group of people. Like there's different things that I would be aware of from my trauma-informed training and certifications. And in terms of how this looks on my retreat is that I try to prioritize really setting people up. So saying like, this is what we're going to do, and then we're going to do this, and then we're going to do this. Like set them up with a set of expectations for the flow of the next hour or even the flow of the day and even, you know, wider lens flow of the whole week of the retreat. And try to prioritize creating a setting where people feel safe enough to be challenged and also safe enough to say, one, it's too much too fast or to bow out when it's too much too fast. What do you think about that?

Cecilie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. Mm-hmm.

Caitie: Yeah. And again, like trauma informed isn't a regulated term, but it is to say that the person facilitating the retreat is informed of trauma. And I've definitely been in retreat settings that were not like trauma informed for sure. And we're a little bit too pushy. And we're a little bit too much of a surprise. Like the day was a little bit too much of a surprise. And I think what's really important for a facilitator is to create expectations, like you said, guidelines, so that people know how the day and the week are going to flow and they can adjust their energy and make choices for themselves according to those expectations. Like guidelines are so important. And I have been on many retreats where the agenda was adjusted a little bit too much.

And look, I'm not one for rigidity. I love to have structure and flexibility. When I prioritize, I think that balance between structure and flexibility. But I've been on retreat experiences that have just been so willy-nilly. And even on, again, my favorite retreat I ever went on, there was no plan. They adjusted it so much. Like every day we woke up and they were like, we're gonna do yoga at nine. JK lols is gonna be at 11: 30. It was just like a little bit too, like every day was different. And I remember waking up every morning of that retreat and being like, I wonder what the schedule is going to be today. Like I should have known, like I should have been given an agenda for the like five days of the retreat. 

I think scheduling guidelines are really important. And then just as we're kind of wrapping up this conversation about things to look for in a retreat, that's like safe for you. I think is the retreat leader themselves willing to speak with you before it? Because if not, you can expect that you probably won't feel very held. And I've been on a retreat before with someone who has like a pretty big following, not like massive, but much bigger than my own following. And the retreat facilitator didn't send us any emails like themselves before the retreat, didn't like accept questions personally before the retreat. There wasn't even like a clear logistics coordinator that we were talking to, too. There was like kind of this just like ambiguous, like seemingly like AI assistant that was like helping us with the logistics leading up to the retreat. And I feel like it really lacked a personal touch. I had a really good experience on this retreat because of the participants that I met and because the classes that this person led were really well done. But there wasn't like enough of like a personal like, I'm so excited to meet you. I'm so excited that you're choosing my retreat experience, like let me guide you through it. I just feel like that's so important. And what's so important to me is that I can get on a call and meet every single participant before they come on my retreat. And look, some people are very famous and very successful and have way busier schedules than me, I think it's important to prioritize chatting with people on a personal level before. What do you think?

Cecilie: Absolutely. I totally agree. just another thing. And another point I had in my list of false facilitation things to look out for, this is not, this is like a nice to have more so. I don't think this could like make or break a retreat, but I think this is like a nice to have and that is local guides because a big part of the retreats that we didn't really talk about, we had so many other things to talk about. It's the travel, it's the experience of a new place, maybe, or maybe it's the place you've been before, but oftentimes it's a new place. And to have local guides show you around, mean, I'm so excited to go to Portugal with you, Caitie, this summer and experience Lisbon and Portugal through your eyes since you've lived there. You know, I just know it's going to be amazing. And my retreat is in Greece and I have with me my partner Dimitrius, he is my helper. He will be our local Greek guide and it's so amazing to have a Greek person with us who speaks the language, who knows the culture, who can really share that with the attendees. Such a big bonus territory to have local guides. like I said, I think it's more of a nice to have than like an absolute necessity. What do you think?

Caitie: Yeah, I think that if you don't have someone that you know personally, that's really familiar with the area that you're traveling with to just hire the right local guides to be part of the experience. And I think this was actually one of the last things we said we wanted to talk about too, which is just like, is there an itinerary that's been thoughtfully curated to give people a very balanced experience and how much do they actually plan on the retreat is like a really important thing. Like how much intention has been put into the venue and the schedule and what's actually included in the price. Like, because I feel like very often you might go on a retreat and be surprised by the fact that they actually don't give you lunch or like they actually didn't plan anything for the whole day on Saturday and it's just like a free day and I will tell you that I have experienced retreats where that all of that has happened. Like I've been surprised by the food I had to buy or I've been surprised by the amount of free time we had one day or I've been surprised by the fact that we didn't actually leave the campus of the like retreat home like the entire time, even though we were in like a foreign location, but we didn't really get to go explore that location very much outside of the hotel or retreat center. 

And so I think that's a thing too that is maybe a little bit more of a general way of saying it, but it could really make or break the retreat. Like if there is an actual intention that goes into the planning of everything other than like the workshops that the facilitator is doing. I do think there are some people who kind of book a retreat and are like, I am the prize. Like I will be facilitating the retreat. Therefore it is going to be great. And not really considering all of the finer little details like how comfortable is the bed that the people are going to be staying in and is the room air conditioned and all of that kind of stuff.

Caitie: Yeah, anything else, you know, you want to say in the facilitation list?

Cecilie: No, that was my list. Well, the only thing, this is more a note to self as a facilitator, is to something I've learned from leading three retreats now. The upcoming one will be my fourth and that is to keep sharing information because people go into vacation brain modus and that's a great thing. That's an amazing thing. It's so beautiful to see my retreat attendees tap into that. Like every day I get like a little bit more soft, a little bit more open, more relaxed. And that note to myself is that I have to keep sharing information and keep reminding people of the program and so on. And it's really nice to be able to offer that, that people can just like relax, enjoy and make choices and have the best experience for them.

Caitie: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really beautiful point too, is like a good facilitator will be someone that's not gonna drop the ball on like reminding you of the schedule on a regular basis and making sure that you feel held throughout the entire experience. And again, within workshops and classes that you might be taking on the retreat, you might be challenged, but you shouldn't be challenged to plan your own trip. You shouldn't be challenged to figure out where the toilet paper is. You shouldn't be challenged to feel comfortable in your bed. And so I think that those are some things to kind of look out for too. Do you trust that the person leading the experience will also guide you throughout every day? Because yeah, it's not meant to be a solo travel experience. It's not meant to be that you're backpacking through Greece, like it's not meant to be that you're backpacking through Portugal. It's meant to be that you arrive and the whole trip is taken care of for you. So anyway, please tell everyone about your upcoming retreat and why you've designed it in the way it does, you've designed it in the way you have and what is like the main mission of your retreat that's coming up in September.

Cecilie: Yes, I'm so excited about my Greece retreat. So I call it yoga and wellbeing retreats, because it really is combining what I do, which is I teach yoga and I am a positive psychology practitioner. So I'm combining with wellbeing workshops. So that is the main theme. And it's really all about having a really joyful and inspiring experience that will leave you feeling energized and nourished. One of the past retreat attendees, she described this retreat as soul nourishing and I love that. That's exactly what I want. I it to be soul nourishing. Yeah, so in addition to yoga and loving workshops, we will get to explore Greece, have amazing Greek food. We're doing a day trip to a small island. We're just like the most beautiful, crystal clear blue ocean you've ever seen where we do a hike. And if you want to, you can also relax on the beach. Choice is important as we talked about. And yeah, I actually love to see that when on my retreats that people make different choices for themselves. You know, I think it's beautiful to witness that. Yeah, and I'm so excited to host this retreat for the third time. Invitation to check it out. Reach out to me if you want to learn more about it. And I'd be more than happy to talk to you.

Caitie: Yeah, and I can obviously provide the endorsement because I've been on the retreat two years in a row now and I have the gift of like facilitating some of the workshops on the retreat, which is amazing, but also just fully participating and relaxing into it. And what I love about Cecilie's retreat the most is that it is a very luxurious experience. It is an experience that really invites you to relax. Recently someone told me to make a list of 15 things I'm curious about and see what the common through line is in those 15 things. And I wrote a list of 15 things that I'm interested in and I realized the common through line and all of those things is I'm interested in how to relax. If I have a life's mission, it is to try to figure out how to relax because I really struggle to. I'm a pretty anxious, pretty wiry, pretty fiery, pretty energetic person and I really struggle to relax. And I felt when I was on Cecilie's retreat this past September, the most relaxed I can remember feeling for like a good majority of the year. 

There was such a sense of like deep relief that I got from being able to swim in the ocean, but also to do gentle yoga classes every morning. Like they are truly gentle yoga classes. And I really liked that about the retreat as well is that it's just like a very restorative and rejuvenating experience and an amazing way to see Greece. I mean, come on, like Dimitris is the best local guide. He's the sweetest person in the entire world. And I feel like that also needs to be advertised because you and Dimitris are really beautiful with incredibly kind hearts and genuinely zero ego, zero. Like absolutely zero percent ego. Like it's just so like everyone come and unravel and relax and enjoy my class and I don't give a shit what you think about me. I'm just here to like hold space for you. Yeah, so I wanted to provide that context as well.

Cecilie: Thank you. Thank you so much. And I just have to say, it was so amazing to have had you with me on both of my previous retreats. And and it was so special. Like one moment, one of my favorite moments last year was when you were teaching, you were leading a gentle yoga restorative yoga session and gave us Reiki under the stars and the stars were so like this was a night time late night on the beach right next to the ocean, you'd hear the bright stars above us, it was just so special.

Caitie: Yeah, I feel like people, their entire lives pass by them before they're able to have an experience like that. And I feel so grateful that we have this experience of being on the beach at night under the stars in Greece, listening to the waves. I taught you guys gentle yoga and then I got to give you all Reiki afterwards and just remember me and you like lighting the candles for that class. Like I'm trying to get them to like sit on the beach and like not blow out and it was like logistically like ridiculous, but those are the kinds of things that you just, you figure it out as a retreat facilitator. You figure it out, you prioritize it. The little details are important and those details are there on the Cecilie’s retreat. So I can fully, fully endorse that. 

And I can also say that it's a pretty con like a contrasting retreat to mine. My retreat experience is very different. So the kind of retreat that I host is for women and it is specifically focusing on body image and sensuality. And I recently realized that I needed to claim that it's about sensuality because prior to that I was saying aliveness. It's like about really healing your relationship with your body and cultivating a sense of confidence and then like feeling more alive. But how do you feel more alive? By getting in touch with your senses. So it's not sexuality, it's about sensuality. It's about really like feeling safe enough in your body to drop into your senses. 

So, my retreat also is about travel. We are gonna explore Portugal. We're gonna be living on the beach in Portugal. We're gonna go into the city of Lisbon for the day. We're gonna do a lot of things that will immerse us in the Portuguese experience. As Cecilie was saying earlier, I used to live in Portugal, so I know the area very well. I know the little nooks and crannies. I know how to save us a lot of time and how to get us to the right places that we actually want to see and not like the tourist trap places. Um, and that is very exciting. And every day I'm going to be challenging you a little bit. I want to challenge you to rewire your relationship with your body and cultivate a robust sense of self-esteem and genuinely connect with yourself and genuinely connect to other people and drop into your senses and feel safer in your body and play as much as you heal and have fun as much as you like confront stuff. 

Like we're doing like some inner child stuff on my retreat. We're doing some like a body image workshop where everyone gets their own personal photo shoot, like get ready. It's that kind of retreat. It's like a deeply healing woman's circle kind of retreat. And I feel like we need many different kinds of retreats that are hosted by safe people. You know, we need the Cecilie's kind of retreat that is focused on practices for wellbeing and relaxing at a luxurious hotel in Greece. And then we need the retreat house on the beach in Portugal kind of retreat where we're gonna be doing body image and self-esteem and self-confidence workshops. And we need all of it and we need so many different types of retreats to be hosted by so many types of people. So if you are someone who is a yoga teacher, a therapist, a positive psychology facilitator, you work in a field like Cecilie and I, please create your own retreat because the world needs them.

We need more than ever for people to come together in group spaces, in well-facilitated spaces, to come more alive and to connect more deeply to themselves so they can get back to their everyday lives and show up differently with more kindness towards themselves and others.

Cecilie: Yeah, absolutely. And I also just want to endorse your retreat, Caitie, because I've been to your retreat in Scotland and that was amazing. That was, I think, you know, it was such an amazing experience. And I just want to mention that that is really a gift that keeps on giving because we're still in touch as a group, you know, like over a year has passed since our trip to Scotland and we're still connected. And I just think that says it all, That says it all, like how deep of a connection you get on retreats when they are well facilitated.

Caitie: Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think our Scotland group really does have a special kind of energy to it. It really does have a special kind of like, sisterhood bond, which is really amazing. And what I'm excited for with my retreat specifically is that I don't know if I'm like ever going to do them in the same place twice. I think I might just take this Whole, Full, and Alive retreat like around the world. And so it'll be like the Scotland retreat with like the cozy by the fire. was raining out. We saw rainbows in the morning kind of retreat. it's like Portugal is like we're on the beach. It's going to be like beach sunrise. It's going to be like summertime. We're going to have like golden skin and it's going to be really nice. And then I think my next retreat probably will be up here in the UK, because I have to stay in the UK next year, but like somewhere else in the UK and maybe not that far outside of London. And maybe it will be in London. Maybe it will be like a city kind of retreat. Like, I don't know, but I also am of Sicilian heritage and I want to do a retreat in Sicily as well. And like, I feel like I want to get back to the roots in that sense. And I think I'm really excited for that too.

Cecilie: And take it to Norway in the future and I'll be your local guide. Let's do it. Let's talk about it.

Caitie: That's actually a great idea. Yeah, that's actually a great idea. If you enjoyed this episode, if you benefited from this episode, please share it with someone who might be feeling nervous about going on a retreat but is interested in it. That genuinely is our sincerest intention, but also we're inviting you to join my regre- my- my regrease inviting you to join my retreat in July in Portugal, Cecilie's retreat in September in Greece. Honestly, if you have any questions at all, know that we're very accessible people. So you can hop on a call with either one of us and talk more about getting involved, joining us. Yeah, just seriously share this with someone if you think they would benefit from it. That is the most helpful thing you can do for a podcast host and to just get this in the ears of more people. Is there anything else you want to mention?

Cecilie: No, just thank you, Caitie, for this conversation. This was really fun. And yeah, thank you for listening. Love to hear from you. Just slide right into our DMs on Instagram or email us and we'd love to get in touch.

Caitie: Love to hear from you. I love to meet you and I look forward to having you back on the podcast again soon. So yeah.

Cecilie: Thank you.